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Behold the latest Philosophical battle between the Nefarious Vampire/Shapeshifter/Space-Pirate/Ninja Cwruidth and the Paladin Razorclown! Who will emerge triumphant?!
the Razorclown: Cwruidth, have you heard of the chair illustration?
Cwruidth: can't say i have
the Razorclown: here's how it goes: one person stands on a chair, and the other stands right next to them, on the ground.
Cwruidth: yes...
the Razorclown: the person on the chair represents the Christian in a given romantic relationship, and the person on the ground represents a non-Christian.
Cwruidth: i don't follow
the Razorclown: the chair represents the higher standards the Christian lives by.
the Razorclown: now, here's the illustration itself.
Cwruidth: ah there's MORE! THAT's why i didn't get it!
the Razorclown: (indeed.)the Christian tries to pull the person on the ground up onto the chair.
the Razorclown: ...not gonna happen. not unless the other person makes a concerted effort, anyway.
the Razorclown: however, if the person on the ground gives a little tug...
the Razorclown: the Christian loses balance at once and leaves the chair in a grand fashion.
the Razorclown: and that's the chair illustration.
Cwruidth: i see; so it's up to the Christian to make a judgement and find someone they can trust not to pull.
the Razorclown: *nod* indeed.
the Razorclown: which is, more often than not, another Christian. same standards, or close.
Cwruidth: would you be offended if i answered with a Koan?
the Razorclown: dunno. whazzat?
Cwruidth: a Koan? It's a Zen riddle; "What's the sound of one hand clapping" is the most famous one
the Razorclown: aha.
the Razorclown: go ahead!
Cwruidth: It's sort of a riddle with one of those "Duh!" answers, and when you hit the "Duh" it (at least ideally) knocks your brain clear off it's feet and into Enlightenment
the Razorclown: Shakabuku! (Grosse Pointe Blank reference)
Cwruidth: A teacher, weary of the worldliness of his student, brings him to a room with only a chair, and sits him in it. He tells the student that despite his hunger or thirst or any other impulse, he must not leave the room before the chair is gone. BUT; he must not stand up. When the teacher returns for the third time, the student asks him a question, and proves that he has been enlightened. (The question is the tricky bit; if Koans were strictly speaking riddles, it would be the answer)
the Razorclown: all right, then.
Cwruidth: Now, Koans have two functions; one is as itself; it represents a lesson; the other is telling the Koan and then the "Answer," and the trick then is to see how it relates to your own problem, and you get the "Duh" all over again.
the Razorclown: sounds like a Cwruidth Powers trademark.
Cwruidth: Nope; Zen's been doing it for millenia. Do you want to hear the student's question; or find your own?
the Razorclown: pardon my disconnnect.
Cwruidth: naturally; do you need a repost?
the Razorclown: last one was "Now, Koans have two functions;"
the Razorclown: etc.
Cwruidth: ok
Cwruidth: the Razorclown: sounds like a Cwruidth Powers trademark.
Cwruidth: Nope; Zen's been doing it for millenia. Do you want to hear the student's question; or find your own?
the Razorclown: hmm... gimme a second to find a question worth asking.
the Razorclown: will you open the door so that I can roll out?
Cwruidth: That's not what the student asked but the thing about Koans, the correct answer isn't necessarily what the Student asked, since your problem is not his; you know the answer is the correct one when it enlightens you.
the Razorclown: ...gnostic or mantic?
the Razorclown: gnotic.
the Razorclown: gnosis = Greek for "special knowledge"
the Razorclown: hmm.
Cwruidth: It's just if you hear the student's your mind can maybe make the parallel leap. The word you want is Gnomic (Not anything to do with Gnomes, incidentally), and it's definitely Mantic
the Razorclown: (aha. i tried.)
the Razorclown: what was the student's question?
Cwruidth: i think Gnotic might work too...
The teacher returned and asked if the chair had gone yet, and the still seated student, in all sincerity, replied "Master, what chair?"
Cwruidth: too Mantic?
the Razorclown: (the question occured to me, but i had no reason to ask it. i had heard "what chair" in a different context.)
the Razorclown: perhaps. was there a chair?
Cwruidth: Yes, and no; the student transended the chair
Cwruidth: Transcended^
the Razorclown: that is to say, he failed to recognize it.
Cwruidth: not at all; the recognition was his problem to begin with
the Razorclown: so... he decided not to recognize it?
Cwruidth: He decided that the chair might not be necessary for him to sit in the chair
the Razorclown: my question is... was he right?
the Razorclown: or rather, correct?
Cwruidth: what do you mean?
Cwruidth: Did the teacher let him out?
the Razorclown: no. i mean, was the chair necessary for him to sit in the chair?
Cwruidth: no; he proved that himself
the Razorclown: I see less transcendence and more doublethink.
Cwruidth: not at all
Cwruidth: Doublethink is malicious; and teaches obedience, not transcendence
the Razorclown: what did he transcend?
Cwruidth: Not the chair; the need for the chair.
the Razorclown: are you suggesting that I should transcend my need for sexual guidelines?
Cwruidth: No, i'm suggesting that the Christian from the illustration can still stand on his chair; but if he transcends the need for that chair, he appears to himself to be standing equal with the other; and no amount of pulling will unseat him.
the Razorclown: ah. well.
Cwruidth: that's a bit much to swallow, eh?
the Razorclown: only in a practical sense.
Cwruidth: what other sense if there?
the Razorclown: because transcending the need for the chair means a level of maturity and restraint that I don't think I have right now.
Cwruidth: ah
Cwruidth: is that level important to you?
the Razorclown: immensely.
Cwruidth: Do you know how to attain it?
the Razorclown: I have a few ideas, mostly having to do with avoiding temptation.
Cwruidth: hm
the Razorclown: but that alone is not enough for growth.
the Razorclown: for maturation.
Cwruidth: it's tempting (if you pardon the pun) to suggest further trancendence, but mostly that's the general Zen suggestion
the Razorclown: that is, doing away with desires?
Cwruidth: hmm, trancending a desire isn't about abolishing it; it's about learning to make yourself the master of the desire, not vice versa
Cwruidth: Abolition of desire always puzzled me about Christianity
the Razorclown: and yet...
the Razorclown: Colossians 2:20...
Cwruidth: remind me
the Razorclown: You have died with Christ, and he has set you free from the evil powers of this world...
the Razorclown: ...So why do you keep on following rules of the world, such as "Don't handle, don't eat, don't touch."
the Razorclown: verse 23:
the Razorclown: These rules may seem wise because they require strong devotion, humility, and severe bodily discipline. But they have no effect when it comes to conquering a person's evil thoughts and desires.
the Razorclown: so.
Cwruidth: But Christ preached that God suffers evil to exist because he is so benevolent that he can bring good even from evil.
the Razorclown: just a second.
the Razorclown: Romans 6:13
the Razorclown: So since God's grace has set us free from the law, does that mean we can go on sinning? Of course not!
the Razorclown: Don't you realize that whatever you choose to obey becomes your master?
the Razorclown: You can choose sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God and receive his approval.
Cwruidth: how is that contradictory to what i suggested?
the Razorclown: depends on what you meant. what did you mean?
the Razorclown: are you talking about temptation as a vehicle for God's will?
Cwruidth: NO!
Cwruidth: NOOOOO!!!
Cwruidth: nononono
the Razorclown: then explain.
Cwruidth: that's not benevolent, that's downright vengeful
the Razorclown: agreed.
Cwruidth: but if God brings good even from evil, then to abolish a desire, rather than master it, is to ignore the potential good that the object of desire could teach
the Razorclown: that said, God knows what that potential is. if he would have you abolish a desire rather than merely master it, it's best to listen.
Cwruidth: but who is to say what God desires? Wasn't that the Christ's job?
the Razorclown: yes. and it is also the Christian's job to listen, meditate, and read scripture in order to discern God's will.
Cwruidth: But Christ told the world the Gospel
the Razorclown: yes. hence, scripture.
Cwruidth: But the scripture is not the Gospel
the Razorclown: in my vocabulary, it is.
Cwruidth: "Love your God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself. Greater than any commandment are these."
the Razorclown: verily.
Cwruidth: or All commandments
the Razorclown: that is not to say that the other commandments do not exist.
Cwruidth: But if you can love God and Love your neighbor and still be master of your desires, then you remain righteous. These rules are exclusive from the breaking of any other commandment.
the Razorclown: there's just one trick.
the Razorclown: you can't.
Cwruidth: i'm so sorry i have to say it, it's rude and discourteous, but the only answer to that is 'bullshit.'
the Razorclown: well, I can't.
the Razorclown: I'm not that strong.
Cwruidth: God makes you strong where you are weak
Cwruidth: If you can love God, and accept his love, then no power moves you
the Razorclown: ideally.
Cwruidth: And factually
Cwruidth: that's the point
Cwruidth: ideals do not need to be unattainable to remain ideal
the Razorclown: I'm a sinner, Cwruidth. God's going to keep forgiving me for things, because I'm going to keep sinning.
the Razorclown: what I hate to do, I do.
the Razorclown: Yes, I will grow...
the Razorclown: ...but I will never be good enough that I will not need God.
Cwruidth: i will never, ever tell you that you don't need God; i'm telling you the opposite, Paladin Sir.
the Razorclown: good.
the Razorclown: I think Sam Hatton said it best.
the Razorclown: "Fearing God means you don't have to fear anything else."
the Razorclown: even your own weakness. or desires.
Cwruidth: i think we're on the same page; i'm saying that i believe in my heart that you have the power to master any desire God sees as unChristian, and you will only be able to if you can love God and others first.
the Razorclown: aha. that is indeed true.
Cwruidth: So why settle for less?
the Razorclown: ja.
Cwruidth: No, that's my question.
the Razorclown: *chuckle* because it's easier. the wide path.
Cwruidth: If you're eyeing the wide path, maybe you're not doing the former as best you can...
the Razorclown: right. but I'm not. i'm just anwering the question.
the Razorclown: I'm never quite sure what to expect from our conversations.
Cwruidth: LoL, maybe that makes them useful
the Razorclown: maybe.
Cwruidth: it's always interesting to me to see two alien paradigms touch; especially when they see their essential sameness
the Razorclown: yeah... c'est assez bizzare.
And so, in a display of geometry never before seen outside of M.C. Escher, the pair arrived at a conclusion with a triumphant foot each on the other's chest; When they untangled themselves, they went on to a friendly game of Risk.
Courtesy.
Sushi is a sporadic columnist for the White Room, and detests poor grammar and spelling. When he is not writing articles for public consumption, he has a life, in which he enjoys things.
Well, i have a sneaking hunch of who Kit Kat is...
just a hunch, mind you...
The twenty Dollar Reward is still in effect...
But if it is who i think it is, she gets a cookie anyways.
Courtesy,
Sushi...
or Tsdnyes? ;)
-383
I am 100% Evil Genius
I am pure evil. I lie awake at night devising schemes of world domination,
and I will not rest until all living souls bend to my will.
Just so it's official.
On the other hand, i'm also...
70% Tortured Artist
Art is significant in my life, people are scum but I have the capicity to deal with it.
Give it a few more years and I will either forget about art or hate the world.
i miss Smurfie; she called today, but i was driving,
and i guess she couldn't call back after po...
miss miss miss...
Contrary to what seems to be popular belief,
missing her has to do with the happiness i get from
being with her and around her, talking to her, etc
not trivial factors, like say completely at random,
the state of my penis.
(Wouldn't it make sense for me to have another
girlfriend by now if it didn't?)
Apparently there are still rival schools of thought...
Courtesy
